Pursuit of the truth requires more than imagination: it requires the generation and decisive elimination of alternative possibilities until, ideally, only one remains, and it requires a habitual readiness to attack one's own convictions.
- Thomas Nagel, The View From Nowhere

June 30, 2010

Formation and Reinforcement of Religious Belief + My Backstory


Many of our beliefs are products of our peers, parents, culture, and education. Generally, we'd like to think that many of our important beliefs are justified with good support and evidence, but that's probably not the case. Advertising is muddled with "sales" and statistics often mislead us. News commentators tell us about how terrible the political party they don't belong to us. Sports networks tout about how great certain teams are and how certain teams have the greatest fans in the world...but so does every other team. We often might not think twice (or even once) until someone, if ever, points out errors in our thinking. Figures who have some sort of authority or perceived authority make claims that we often accept just because.

Imagine if I were to teach you a card game, you'd probably accept what I have to say regarding the rules of the game and probably have all reasons to do so. You don't know how to play the game and you think I do...but I could have just presented you incorrect information and you would not have known it. If you find inconsistencies in my presentation of the information or it appears that I'm making up rules as I go along, you might question, but you'll accept everything else.

Imagine that you hear a speech regarding research on autism from a professor at a university. When you return home are you going to check the information presented and see if it is widely accepted by scientists? Are you going to look for the studies that were referenced? If you know much about the topic and care about the topic, you might, but if you don't really know much and don't care, you probably won't. If a conversation with friends on autism happens in the future, you'll probably present this information and say "an expert told me this" ... and you might even communicate incorrect information do to a faulty memory, confusion of ideas, and your own possible related ideas that really have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Children playing the "telephone game" can demonstrate this quite easily. (Tell someone a story and over time the original story can change quite easily and quite drastically.)

Watch this Short Change Scam...the shopkeeper here has no idea that she got scammed and probably would not realize she was scammed until the end of her shift when she counts her drawer.


It's very easy to be confused when you are multitasking and dealing with numbers.

We often don't take the time (and really can't) to verify every claim we hear. It's impossible to demand tremendous evidence for all claims we hear, so we simply accept information as being credible. Combine claims with environmental distractions, you thinking about what is going to happen later in the day, cognitive errors...

Let's make it more difficult and consider children. Children listen to their parents because they believe that their parents are very smart, right about most things, and for evolutionary reasons. Children look up to their parents and other role-models...they listen to teachers, are told that people in uniforms (especially policemen) are trustworthy, and generally accept most of what they hear unless it contradicts earlier learned information. Children readily believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and the boogeyman. Sure, over time these beliefs fade because children realize that these are fairy tales and other children or adults "spoil" them. Many other beliefs that adults continue to believe in and reinforce such as the ideas that minority groups are inferior, homosexuals are "wrong and disordered," homeless people are homeless because they are failures at life, Mother Theresa is a paragon for charity and goodness, priests and clergy are exemplary moral individuals who know more about morality and ethics than laypeople, etc.

Children will believe in most beliefs that adults constantly reinforce and present as fact. When the general population also reinforces these ideas and presents ideas as fact, the reinforcement is strengthened. As you might have guessed, a particularly reinforced and shielded belief in America is Christianity. Churches in small town Pennsylvania are often "on every street corner next to bars" as the common joke and reality suggests. There's no shortage of churches and adults professing their faith. There's no shortage of schoolchildren believing in the Christian god. There is no shortage of children attending religious classes such as CCD, summer camps, etc. At a very early age, children are told that Jesus died for their sins, that Hell is real (and Christians think that teaching Hell is justified), and that when they die they'll see all of their family in Heaven. Yup, children around the age of five are learning about death, are guilt-ridden, and placed in a state of fear for what they do because a loving god who is watching them can send them to burn for eternity...but that's a post for another day.

I can recall learning about the idea of reconciliation and sin at a very early age and having to go to confession. I was told that I had to pray away my wrongdoings, talk with a priest about my sins, and felt really bad about not attending church, not listening to my parents, etc. I worried about my great grandmother after she died and I went to her funeral and cried because there was a chance she wasn't going to Heaven. I honestly thought that I had to pray to her because she was in purgatory. When I sinned I felt really bad...especially after getting out of confession.

I had no choice in this matter. My parents never said anything like "Well, here is what we believe and here is the reason for believing it. What do you think?" or "You can choose whether you believe in it or not." Even today my mother says, "You can't not believe in God, you're raised Roman Catholic." When I ask why she believes (which often doesn't happen because she gets very angry), I get appeals to tradition, emotive arguments, arguments from ignorance/complexity, and stupid arguments like Pascal's Wager or "you have to believe in something." With her, there is no rational discussion about God because she is convinced for "personal reasons."

"Arguments" from ignorant believers (not all of them are, of course because many wouldn't say these really stupid things) consist of similar patterns and these people never even met each other!

  • I have a right to my own beliefs!
  • Don't tell me what to believe!
  • It's better to believe in something than nothing!
  • Who are you to question God!
  • How could the universe have arisen from nothing without God?
  • If you believe in God and you're wrong you've lost nothing, but if you don't believe in God and you're wrong, it's all suffering.
  • The eye/universe/this giraffe is too complex to exist without God!
  • I have faith! I don't need evidence, reason, and argument!
  • I believe because it's right for me!
  • Everything happens for a [hidden/mystical] reason! OMG!!1one (my most hated assertion)

As mentioned in other posts, no one really challenged my ideas about religion until around my second year in college. I went on in my life as a "true believer" and used programmed responses (where did I get them from anyway, church and CCD, of course.) like "that's why it's faith." I enjoyed going to church, singing the music, seeing all of the art, narrarating and reading the readings, etc. Church is a place where you really do feel good and feel part of a team (despite all the mixed messages about God's love...but yet he may torture you and others for all eternity). Christianity tells you about how bad you are...and offers you ways to deal with the bad (although the bad often is an idea of bad exclusive to Christianity). Sure, not all forms of Christianity or individual Christians accept everything the church or the Bible says, but the general idea of sin is widely accepted - we're inherently "fallen" and the way to deal with it is to accept Jesus, repent, and feel sorry for our wrongdoings after "getting right with God." The real problem here is that humans do make mistakes and we don't always do the right thing, so we get a constant loop looking with this:

Christianity tells us that certain actions and thoughts are wrong
We do something wrong
We feel guilty
We're told that doing "x" will make it better
We repent and confess our sins
We do something wrong
We feel more guilty
We repent.....

Couple this with the existence of Hell, the idea that God is always watching us, and the idea that only the righteous and true believers go to Heaven and you're quite easily "hooked." Again, not all believers think of sin and exemplify this loop, but many do. Some children are told that it's wrong to question about God ("The blasphemy of the Spirit today, which is the same as the unpardonable sin, is the state of continued unbelief. There is no pardon for a person who dies in unbelief.") and that people who don't believe in him are immoral devil-worshipers who worship science. What's even worse is that the non-believers are not visible and vocal so the myths can perpetuate. Only if more atheists were out and active... Children might say "Hey, daddy, Uncle Jim told me he doesn't believe in any gods and talked to me about it. I asked him some questions and you know, non-believers aren't bad like Pastor Tim said they were." The myths of atheists being bad people even continues with adults...I recently heard this from someone in a classroom. Unfortunately, I didn't have the time to respond, "I know you're an atheist and everything, BUT you're pretty nice and respectful." Why the but......???!?

Beliefs about the nature of the universe and the supernatural should not be justified because of emotion or personal experiences. They should be justified because of good reason, argument, and evidence...not fear, comfort, and appeals to tradition.

It is often the case with Christianity that children are labeled as religious because they can properly make a choice about the ideas and fully read their religious texts. Imagine calling children republicans or democrats...but we often call children religious. What is this madness? Can you ever possibly think of a child ever saying, "You know what? I think that the government should stay out of our lives as much as possible, everyone should own whatever guns they want, and the rich should not be taxed at a high rate." Never... but we will hear children saying they love Jesus and Jesus loves them. There's clearly something wrong with this picture.

It's odd that religious belief often doesn't start with "Here's the idea and here is the reason that it is true" but rather infantile belief followed by later "justifications" and excuses. We're doing things in the reverse order here. Read the Bible, think about the ideas, and then make a decision...we shouldn't make a decision before the reasons for the decision. Children could easily be presented with the ideas of Scientology, Jainism, Islam, Christianity, or Pastafarianism and wholly believe it. As Richard Dawkins says and I'll slightly modify, religious belief is often an accident of birth: you're born into a family with religious parents and you believe what they do because you're told that it's true. Later in life you might investigate, but chances are that you won't or will just accept your version of the truth modifying what others believe and maybe some of your beliefs. Fundamentalists might turn into moderates and moderates might just be content with "what I believe is what I believe and I believe it." Fundamentalists might turn to non-belief and non-believers might turn out to be fundamentalists...although I do doubt many who say that they used to be atheists but then present "arguments" like Pascal's Wager :)

Even amongst theists, I hardly, if ever, get "real reasons" for belief. I generally get nonsense as bulleted above and a good conversation hardly ever happens. It shouldn't be hard to say something like, "This is what I believe and why I believe it" without falling victim to logical fallacies. Even if I don't agree with your worldview or ideas, you should be able to present arguments and reasons. Laziness, ignorance, and simply not thinking about issues deeply can be to blame...this can apply to all issues and all people. Can many theists often list the arguments from atheists and give responses that are coherent? I think not. I'm not trying to make theists look unintelligent or stupid, but many people do give the "group" a bad name quite often (and I'm sure atheists can do the same because atheism doesn't always entail awesome clarity of thought).

So, are we now to be disillusioned and give up all our beliefs, never trust people, and not accept new information? No, the proper course is to really think about what matters, go out and investigate, ask proper questions, make up your own mind, and have good reasons for your important beliefs. When I first wanted to think about the possibility of Christian claims being false and I was still a theist, I thought "It's pretty important whether or not God exists. I should really seek some answers" and now I'm here from a "true believer" who was told that cursing was a "strike" for me against God to a person who freely says fuck on any given opportunity. What a change... I've learned so, so much from the past year or so and still have much more to learn and explore.

Whatever your decisions are, understand that important ideas should be based on good reason that you can dictate, understand, and present to detractors and, as always, you might be entitled to your own beliefs, but you aren't entitled to your own facts.

June 13, 2010

Hate Mail From a "Semi-Pro?" Wrestler


Here's some recent hate mail and my response. This one is quite entertaining and quite different. The mailer is indented while my responses are not. Commentary is in italics.

Let's be clear about a few things.

1) You're not an atheist; you're an attention whore- Your definition of "activist" is very concerning. Who exactly are you speaking for? Other atheists? Funny how in the months since your last public panty dance, not a single person has come forward to support you in any meaningful way. This is probably due to the fact that your logic is flawed, your actions are mean-spirited and spiteful, and that your personality detracts from any "cause" you may be championing.

2) You are much too lazy to be an activist- In all these months since you began spewing your nonsense, have you taken any time at all to serve your community or do something good? (*Please don't respond with "Yes, I got some Christmas decorations taken down for a day".*) You're somewhat notable in our area as a rabble rouser and trouble maker....but as far as being an actual benefit to the community, you are far from that. There are actual issues out there...and not even far away. St. Vincent's Soup Kitchen is right around the corner from where you live....I wonder if you can see it from your ivory tower?


3) You're a hypocrite- I read your post bashing the psychic who failed to answer your challenge. I DISTINCTLY remember going on the radio and challenging you at a charity event this past January benefiting a family who fell victim to a fire. This event could have used your notoriety to help a family in need...and apparently my challenge fell on deaf ears. Funny how you'll throw that in someone's face while conveniently forgetting your own past. This makes you a hypocrite, dear boy, no matter how much you hate it.

(I mailed a letter to the editor of the local newspapers here that was in no way "bashing" soon after someone enlisted the help of a psychic. I was also challenged to a professional wrestling match that I did respond to, but got no response. I was never directly contacted and only found out about this through google picking up my name in search engines. See Below.)

4) I know why you don't believe in God; because your parents failed you. That obviously makes you very angry, and you want the community to pay by proxy. Your whining approach to handling the drama you created at Christmastime was very telling; tantamount to a child throwing a tantrum in a store. And, just like a child, as soon as a parent (or, in this case, your community) spanked and scolded you, you ran off and laid low...afraid to even poke your head out. You will learn very early on in childhood development about the child testing the parents. You started trouble because you craved attention and knew people would be upset with you for attacking them at the holidays. You wanted attention of any sort and you got it. But, once you got it, you were unable to do anything useful with it. This is DIRECTLY reflective of your relationship with your parents, and it hardly takes a therapist to identify it.

In short, nothing you will ever say will matter in the least, because you lack the courage to follow your convictions past a typing fit. If you feel strongly that there is no God, go with it. Hell, I find dealing with you pretty convincing proof that no such thing as "intelligent design" exists. That does not change the fact, however, that you are just another useless bump on the log of social ignorance. I sincerely hope you'll figure things out and, to some extent, grow up and be an asset to your community.


In all seriousness, Justin, I strongly feel that you are better than all of this. You have the passion, that's obvious. Now channel it in a productive direction, and try to stir the pot less. These people you attack are just that....people. They deserve as much respect as you...and you forget that. Do better.


-----

Justin Vacula June 12 at 4:08am
" not a single person has come forward to support you in any meaningful way."

Look on my blog and see friendly and supportive comments. Look at various blogs and see comments. Look at comments from the CV and TL articles that are supportive. The prime supporter was Corbett on his show, of course...he went for about an entire week in full support of me. A local author, Kenny Luck, is going to release a book very soon about the political activities in Luzerne County....he contacted me for an interview and I accepted....and this is just the tip of the iceburg. Obvious other support came from members of The Atheist Experience TV show that featured me...after being on the show I recieved tons of friend requests, people going on the air, etc. In December, the organization in belong to, the NEPA Freethought Society, fully supported me.....


" This is probably due to the fact that your logic is flawed, your actions are mean-spirited and spiteful, and that your personality detracts from any "cause" you may be championing. "

How is my logic flawed? The officials at the courthouse even agreed that they were wrong. Deluca, in an interview with Corbett that is still on WILK News Radio archives agrees with me.

"You are much too lazy to be an activist- In all these months since you began spewing your nonsense, have you taken any time at all to serve your community or do something good?"

My group is currently working on a support program for prisoners as an alternative to religion. My group participated in an Autism relay benefit (the pics are on our main page)...... The discussion alone is a great benefit to many questioning individuals, non-theists, etc. I constantly get "Hey I really like what you're doing..." from many people.

"You're a hypocrite- I read your post bashing the psychic who failed to answer your challenge."

Bashing is a very charged word here. I called her out and said that there is no good reason to accept her claims unless she submits to a test of her abilities. She failed to respond as many psychics often do. James Randi's challenge is still active. She is playing on the emotions of various people, offering false hope, and taking peoples' money. Until she demonstrates abilities, there is no good reason to accept her claims.

"I DISTINCTLY remember going on the radio and challenging you at a charity event this past January benefiting a family who fell victim to a fire. This event could have used your notoriety to help a family in need...and apparently my challenge fell on deaf ears."

I actually e-mailed the e-mail posted on the blog of Anthracite Wrestling

Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 11:15 PM
To:
anthraciteprofessionalwrestling@yahoo.com
So, today I found out that I was challenged by a wrestler from your organization.

Can you tell me more information about this challenge?

I am, by no means, a wrestler of any sorts.

Josh Solarczyk [anthraciteprofessionalwrestling@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 8:07 AM
To:
Vacula, Justin
Justin:

I have no idea what you are talking about. I am the promoter/owner of APWA. I do not have exclusive rights to any one wrestler who wrestles for me. If someone has challenged you, they are not acting on my behalf or APWA's behalf, but on there own behalf.

Thanks
Manslaughter

I even posted about this on my Facebook (but that's far back in the archive.

I went on the Corbett show and even discussed this...he said that the challenge was not credible and that I shouldn't accept it and I told him that I would do it. The wrestling organization should have contacted me directly, but I only heard about the challenge because of a Google search on my name.

" I know why you don't believe in God; because your parents failed you. That obviously makes you very angry, and you want the community to pay by proxy. "

This is ridiculous...and I've already addressed this claim. Parenting has nothing to do with this.

Was it I who caused the "drama" or the people getting angry and sending me hate mail? What about the people yelling on TV and holding Jesuses up early in the morning...you can see my hate mail on my blog. The issue was a simple legal issue. I address various other claims here:http://greenatheist.blogspot.com/2009/12/response-to-public.html

"In short, nothing you will ever say will matter in the least, because you lack the courage to follow your convictions past a typing fit."

Typing fit? I agreed to interviews on various mediums of media and appeared in the newspaper. I challenge religion at my CATHOLIC college and gave various presentations about why Christianity is false and how religion is harmful to society in my Catholicism class. I've written essays for classes about arguments about gods for philosophy....

People do care what I have to say...various events at King's College welcomed me to discuss atheism.

"you are just another useless bump on the log of social ignorance. " Comments like these aren't arguments, but rather personal attacks that are unwarranted...just like the parenting comments.

"These people you attack are just that....people. They deserve as much respect as you"

Who am I "attacking?" I'm questioning ideas and asking why people believe what they believe.


I think this sums up most of everything. You can find more on my blog that I linked.

Also: I added you as a friend on Facebook. You can feel free to post this on my wall (or anything else for that matter) and you'll see many of my supporters that you think I don't have. My friends and I are always up for productive discussion and debate.

-------

I won't be adding you anytime soon, bud. Nothing for nothing, but I'd be terribly embarrassed to have you on my list. I do appreciate you taking so much time in writing TWO lengthy, rambling, and self-promoting messages. It's glad to see that my indulging your need for attention has produced some creativity.

So thank you for the offer, but you and the rest of the D&D crowd will just have to play "Gotcha Games" and put on eyeliner without me.

It's quite funny when people try to make fun of D&D players because they often don't know what D&D even is. We don't wear eyeliner...

Justin Vacula June 12 at 7:25am
It's very unfortunate that you won't take me up on the offer to add me and post your arguments on my wall. If you are so sure of your position that I have no supporters and that your arguments are good ones, you should have no problem posting them on my wall. Also, the idea that "I won't add you as a friend because I'd be embarrassed to have on my list" seems very evasive. I have many Facebook friends who are often embarrassing because they post stupid stuff about politics, make poor arguments, etc. A Facebook friend is by no means a person you are on very good terms with or something similar. I've friended people who've challenged my positions and during December many people friended me to debate on my wall.

I gave sufficient and lengthy rebuttals to all of your claims and the "challenge" I proposed on the last message I sent would really put your claims to the test. You'll certainly see all of my supporters and you'll get to debate with us.

My messages where not "needing attention"...besides, what attention is there if I'm simply responding to your claims and defending myself. If someone told you that your philosophical positions are fundamentally based on "hating your parents" or something similar and you give a rebuttal, is this "needing attention" and "self-promotion?"

My D&D crowd doesn't out eyeliner on or dress up at all. The people in my group don't like LARPing at all.

You ought to do a bit of homework before you make many of these claims. I don't expect everyone to read everything in my blog before making arguments about me and my position, but many things you said have been thoroughly debunked by me.

If I'm going to respond to your arguments and you have nothing to say to that, it's as good as giving up your argument and saying "you win," unless, of course, you disagree and it's an opinion.

Many claims you have made are easily debunked and can be dismissed quite handily (as I did). When you make assertions like "this is based on hating your parents," (or mostly any other claim) you need some evidence, argument, and reason to support the claim.

----

Nah, just piss off. I'm bored with you already.

June 12, 2010

A Naturalistic Explanation of Morality: Refuting the Moral Argument for God



During debates, theists often try to argue that morality is an external concept which needs a lawgiver and that lawgiver is God. The moral argument often parallels with the Transcendental Argument for God (TAG). I will offer a naturalistic basis for morality and refute the moral argument that is often presented.


The moral argument is basically this:

A) Morality Exists.

B) Morality is an external concept that is not tangible, so it must need some sort of external lawgiver

C) This lawgiver must be a supernatural being.

D) This supernatural being is God.


There are various problems with this argument that I will put to rest in this blog post. It's very difficult to argue against one specific version of the Christian god or how individual theists imagine him to be/interpret him/the Bible/etc. As always, I try to account for a great deal of beliefs about this god...

  1. Even if the atheist accepts that morality is an external concept which needs a lawgiver (which they shouldn't), how do we know that this lawgiver is any specific deity? The theist who argues for a specific god has all of his/her work cut out for him/her after presenting this argument. The lawgiver could easily be (if the premise is accepted) any number of infinite supernatural beings/illogical/incomprehensible/something we have never thought of/etc. Again, I would not suggest that anyone should accept that morality is an external concept that needs a lawgiver. Insisting that God could be the only explanation because we don't have another explanation is an argument from ignorance and a God of the Gaps argument.


  1. In order to refute the idea that morality is an external concept that needs a lawgiver (God), anyone can simply argue that morality is a product of all of our combined human knowledge, research, findings, etc over the span of our existence and the product of evolution. We “get” morality from our culture, our experiences, our findings in philosophy, science, psychology, etc. Many of us “got” our morality starting from our parents, teachers, role models, etc. We modify our morals throughout our life when we learn new things, have new experiences, and come to new conclusions just as we do with political views, religious views, or almost anything else. Early in our history, slavery was acceptable, but after really thinking about slavery and realizing that owning that owning another human being as property was wrong. This idea did not come from God, but rather was a product of humans coming together to influence opinions, change minds, and fight wars for liberation of human beings.

    Humans discovered that we need to cooperate in order for society to thrive and for our survival. Survival of society is by no means the only consideration for morality, but this is a main highlight and is a very good explanation for how morality developed. We realize that other people are just like us; we often have the same basic wants and needs of shelter, love, food, privacy, sanctity, stability, and justice. We project the wants of ourselves onto others and treat people well because of this idea and many other basic considerations such as wanting to be accepted, the desire to stay out of jail, the desire for a good reputation, etc. At a very basic level, some people are simply afraid to break rules because the don't want to be caught. Of course some people will do bad things and cheat others, but most of us are generally good people and can agree about many basic ideas dealing with morality. “Moral universals” exist because all people around the world are humans and, again, have the same wants and desires. People of similar cultures often obey and respect cultural mores and have certain taboos. It's not that “God wrote the moral law on our hearts,” but rather that morality has a natural explanation. When considering multiple explanations, as Occam's Razor dictates, we ought to choose the one with least complications. Theists and atheists should accept that morality does not need a supernatural lawgiver.


  1. When you read the Bible, you find that this all-loving, all-perfect, all-seeing, all-knowing, and all-powerful being known as God (or at least the writers of the passages, as many Christians would say because, of course, it's not all literal) commands people to commit atrocities, accepts human sacrifices, and gives rules for slavery. When you read about the rules for slavery in the Bible, you use your own standards (not the standards of God) and realize that slavery is wrong for various reasons. Perhaps you don't want to be a slave. Perhaps you don't think it is right to own another human being. The list goes on... The moment you use your standards for morality to disagree with God's character or the character of any favored character in the Bible, you're immediately using your own standards for morality, not those made by an external lawgiver.

    If God is supposed to be this lawgiver, why did he command so many horrid things and give rules for slavery? Theists often say “those rules were for those people at that time,” but this is insufficient because this so called absolute morality should not change over time (unless, of course, you'd argue that we should own slaves, but then you're just out of the discussion). God should not have given rules for slavery and slavery should not be acceptable at any time. If you read the Bible and dismiss all of the bad things as just people writing it, then this objection may not apply to you, although I don't think that that way of reading the Bible is thoroughly honest. On thing that Christians can't throw out is Jesus being offered as a human sacrifice in order to attone for the sins of people. An all-loving being should not find this to be a moral act, a loving plan, or something desirable. People also should not be condemned on the basis of belief, thoughts, or disagreeing with the commands and rules of God. I don't typically enjoy this refutation because it often opens up mini-debates about the literal value of the Bible/interpretation and other side-discussions that aren't really hammering home at the issue. Theists also certainly won't accept that their god is immoral and will make up reasons for him to seem moral/write off the bad passages. The worst of it is when people say, "If God told me to kill my family, I'd certainly do it" or "If God told people to murder babies, it is a moral action." I've experienced that several times in-person.


  1. It does not follow that because a concept exists a supernatural/external being exists. We know and accept various concepts like numbers, infinity, compassion, arrogance, etc. We certainly can't touch, taste, smell, feel, or hear these things, but we can use language to describe these concepts and have a meaningful discussion. We use numbers, for example, in order to coherently talk about the quantity of objects, age, etc. Since numbers are an external concept, does this mean that there needs to be a supernatural being that created numbers? What about democracy? Democracy is a concept in which people vote and elect officials to office. Can we touch democracy? Of course not, but we can realize and understand that this is a concept, just like morality. We realize that both democracy and morality are the products of human discourse and we can agree on basic concepts, but disagree on specifics...it's no problem.


  1. The Euthyphro Dilemma is a great objection to the moral argument. I cover this in much detail in the link that I provided. Click it :)


Opponents of atheistic arguments typically try to strawman atheist positions and say things like, “Atheists only believe in the material, so they can't believe in morality because you can't experience it with the senses.” Materialists don't deny the idea of concepts and ideas, for concepts and ideas arise from the human brain.

We also don't need absolute/unchanging morality to have standards of right and wrong. Let's simply kill this ridiculous argument and agree that people are going to disagree about morality whether or not God exists. Some people won't kiss on a first date. Some people won't wear shoes into a house of a stranger because they think this is disrespectful. Some people won't give money to religious charities because they feel that the money is not spent well as it is in secular charities...and these are just simple ideas. We can still have standards of right and wrong and disagree...and it's okay to disagree.

The idea that there is no absolute standard does not for one moment give us license to say, “Oh, I don't believe in any gods, so I'm free to go raping, murdering, and pillaging and this is okay because I say so. “ Rational beings simply don't do this for obvious reasons. If this were true, why don't we see constant everyday crime by all of the non-theists in countries around the world? Why am I and my fellow atheists friends not all incarcerated and awaiting the death penalty? The idea of No God – No moral basis is absurd. Regardless, this is bordering on a red herring argument.


Some theists, as a last ditch effort, will try to argue that Hitler and Stalin were atheists and what they thought they did was right so it was right. I dealt with this objection here. This is another red herring argument that does nothing to demonstrate that a god exists. Hitler and Stalin did not kill people because they were atheists...Hitler and Stalin killed people because they were twisted, evil, and forcing ridiculous ideologies on people. Atheism does not have any ideology whatsoever; there is no link from “I don't believe in God” to “Murdering millions of people is an acceptable action.” Regardless, the coin can be flipped and we can argue about the atrocities of religious people, but this would probably also be irrelevant to the discussion.


It's often interesting that morality often is the topic of discussion when claims of God's existence are levied. People often just don't think about a naturalistic basis for morality and think that if people don't believe in any gods they will misbehave and have no reason to behave well. Atheists and theists ought to behave well because they respect others, don't want to go to fail, want to be treated fairly, and want to make this life great for themselves and others. If you're interested in reading more about a naturalistic basis for morality, read Stephen Pinker's The Blank Slate and Michael Shermer's The Science of Good and Evil. Theists and atheists should enjoy these books.


As always, if you have any comments or objections to my arguments or ideas, feel free to post!

June 3, 2010

Responding to Common Arguments




Here's the argument from the theist (in quotes) and my response.
I decided to make a post out of it because this took about 40 minutes. Damn.
I didn't want to spend too much time on this, though, so my responses aren't HUGE.

What you fail to realize is anyone who even suggests the idea of not God, but Intelligent Design, they are publicly ostracized by the scientific community. Journalists have been fired, tenured professors have been fired and lost their tenures, all for only SUGGESTING looking into I.D. (which is different than God)

The scientific world is so biased towards evolution and against anything that opposes it. Check out Ben Stein's documentary "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" I have watched the film with atheists and evolution proponents, and they were shocked by what they saw and what is REALLY going on in the scientific community.

I was once asked the question: "In my class we are having a roleplaying type debate game where the class is set in the 1860's and darwin just came out with his evolutionary theory. I'm curious on how you would argue creationism besides saying "because the bible says so""

First off, it is quite impossible to argue for creationism without somewhat including 'because the Bible says so,' because Creationism is the belief that God of the Bible created the heavens and the earth, so you would logically need to at least somewhat use that initial source (the Bible) to help show your side of the argument.

The way you have your question worded would be like, "Try and prove what Darwin really says about evolution...without using any of his memoirs or his book 'Origin of Species.'" You obviously wouldn't be able to prove or disprove anything without seeing what his actual viewpoints on the matter were, and his source material. So therefore if you want to argue Creationism, the Bible will indefinitely be used.

However, you CAN argue Intelligent Design without the use of the Bible. Many people make the assumption that anyone or any scientist who argues the theory of I.D. is simply trying to push God into the classrooms. This is not the case. There are thousands of legitimate scientists all over the world who believe the theory of Intelligent Design, not Creationism, holds validity, and that life around us undeniably shows that there was some kind of grand designer, whether he is God or aliens.

In almost any scientific classroom you enter today, if you argue Intelligent Design, you will be ridiculed. You will be told you are ignorant and close-minded. It has gotten to the point where scientists and journalists worldwide have lost their jobs, careers, tenures, and much more for even possibly proposing the theory of I.D.

This is outrageous as scientists are supposed to be free to learn about and explore whatever they feel like. Never before have there been limits to science, where people were told what they are allowed to research and what they are not allowed to research. There was an entire documentary made on this very topic of the modern world forcibly crucifying those that believe in I.D. (not Creationism). It is Ben Stein's "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" and I'd encourage anyone to watch it. It was one of the best and most eye-opening films I have ever seen.

But back to the basis of your question. Since the beginning of science, science has been maintained by making hypotheses and theories on different aspects of life, and trying to come up with answers and prove the meanings to things. It was done with great risks, and science has very often been wrong before, only to be improved upon and corrected at the addition of later science with more advanced research.

For example, centuries ago science stated that the sun revolved around the earth. In more recent centuries science stated that science was before wrong, and that the earth actually revolves around the sun and that the sun does not revolve at all. But yet again, science has corrected itself when in recent years, science discovered that the sun does indeed revolve; not around the earth, but the sun does revolve around the Milky Way galaxy through space.

Centuries ago, science claimed that the earth was flat. Centuries later science said it was previously wrong, and that the earth is indeed circular.

Centuries ago, scientists of the Greek society believed earth was carried on top of the god Atlas' shoulders. Scientists from the Hindu society believe that the earth rested on the back of an elephant that stood on the back of a gigantic turtle that swam through an endless sea. Yet science changed yet again in 1650 with Sir Isaac Newton when he discovered the concept of gravity, and claimed that the earth actually hangs on nothing.

Centuries ago before the invention of the telescope, science taught that the stars in the sky were able to be numbered. Greek astronomer and mathematician Hipparchus (190-120 B.C.) claimed that there were exactly 1,026 stars. Later science corrected itself with astronomer and mathematician Ptolemy who said that there were actually 1,056 stars. Later on, science corrected itself again with German astronomer Johannes Kepler (1571-1630 A.D.) who claimed that there were actually only 1,006 stars. Science of those days taught that the stars in the sky could be numbered. But science changed once again in 1608, when Galileo invented the first telescope, and found that there were many, many more stars in the sky than any previous human mind had ever been able to imagine.

So what is my point with all of this? My point is that science always has been, and still is flawed. Yes, it corrects itself, but there are still flaws. Some scientists devote their entire lives to 'proving' one theory, only to be proven wrong centuries later by another theory. This is what I believe happened with Darwin.

And for the record, each of those factual scenarios I listed above, the earth being a sphere, the earth hanging on nothing, the stars being unnumbered, and the sun revolving, guess what. The BIBLE taught us all of these facts long before science discovered that they were facts. Let me show you how.

The Bible not only contains zero scientific errors, but also makes accurate scientific statements, which would not be discovered until centuries later. I’ll give you a few examples.

A. The SunUnlike the Muslim Qur’an, which states that the sun sets in a muddy spring (Surah 18:86), the Bible claims that the sun is on a circuit through space. In Psalm 19:6, King David says, “Its rising is from one end of heaven, and its circuit to the other end.” But wait, the sun doesn’t revolve, right? Science has proven that the Earth rotates around the sun, and not vice versa, which is what was thought for many centuries, right? Yes, that is correct. In fact, scientist at the time of the Bible believed that the sun was stationary. However, as we have discovered in more recent years, although the sun does not revolve around the earth, the sun does indeed revolve around the Milky Way galaxy through space, just like David claims.

B. The Shape of the EarthIn Isaiah 40:22, Isaiah makes the claim, “It is He who sits above the circle of the earth.” The Hebrew word for circle is “chuwg.” “Chuwg” literally translates into “sphere.” We know that Isaiah wrote these words somewhere between 740 and 680 B.C. Scientist during this time claimed that the earth was flat! Aristotle himself, who wrote in his book “On the Heavens,” did not make the claim that the earth was spherical, until at least 300 years after Isaiah wrote what he did. Other verses that reference the spherical shape of the earth are Proverbs 8:27. In fact, more than 2,000 years later, even in 1492, some scientists still believed that Christopher Columbus would sail right off of the flat surface of the earth!

C. The Suspension of the EarthGreeks believed that the mythological god Atlas carried the earth on his shoulders. Hindus believed that the earth rested on the back of an elephant that stood on the back of a gigantic turtle that swam through an endless sea. Sir Isaac Newton eventually discovered the concept of gravity in the 1600’s. Yet, Job of the Old Testament Bible, claims in Job 26:7, “He [God] hangs the earth on nothing.” Science did not discover the earth hangs on nothing until about 2,000 years later in 1650.

D. The StarsBefore the invention of the telescope, man thought that they were able to number the starts in the sky. Greek astronomer and mathematician Hipparchus (190-120 B.C.) claimed that there were exactly 1,026 stars. Astronomer and mathematician Ptolemy said that there were 1,056 stars. German astronomer Johannes Kepler (1571-1630 A.D.) claimed that there were 1,006 stars. Modern science of those days taught that it was possible to number the stars in the sky. At least, until Galileo invented the first telescope in 1608, and found that there were many, many more stars in the sky than any human up until that point had ever imagined.

Jeremiah wrote in Jeremiah 33:22, centuries before any all of these other figures, “The host of heaven [a reference to the stars] cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the seas measured.” With modern technology, scientists estimate that the universe contains possibly 100 billion galaxies, with approximately, 200, billion stars each. According to those figures, that would be enough for every single person alive on the planet to personally own more than 2 trillion stars each, and there still be some to spare. Dr. Mark Eastman states, “Counting at a rate of ten stars per second it would take over 100 trillion years. Surely the host of heaven cannot be numbered!” World famous astronomer, Carl Sagan (1934-1996) also states, “The total number of stars in the universe is greater than all the grains of sand on all the beaches of planet Earth.”

How did the authors of the Bible, in a time period when science said that the earth was flat, the start could be numbered, the sun was stationary, and that the earth was not suspended on nothing, predict with 100% accuracy without flaw, centuries before science discovered the truths about all of these things? Was it all just coincidence and lucky guesses? You can think what you want, but I will continue to believe that like the Bible says, its authors were divinely inspired. 2 Peter 1:21 states, “Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”

But anyway, that was getting off topic and going into the Bible. Back on track. There was no need to argue Creationism scientifically at the time of Darwin, because the majority of scientists were Christians, and believed without a doubt that it was God who created everything. So if they knew in their hearts this to be true, why would they try and prove it wrong? But then along comes Darwin, and what does he have to do? He has to take a risk. He has to make claims that are considered so outrageous by the rest of society, with the risk of being publicly ostracized and ridiculed. But he did it anyway, and he made his claims. Now his THEORY, is taught in most of our schools as FACT.

So now let me relate back to the beginning of my answer. There are scientists today who were like Darwin in the 1800's. They think Darwin was maybe onto something, but like the scientists who believed the earth was flat, or that the stars could be numbered, that Darwin didn't have it all correct, and there is more to it. But what is happening today to these scientists who dare to question Darwin? They are publicly ridiculed; and many of them have legitimate theories and questions they want to pursue. What would society be like today if scientists in the past had just stood back, and accepted everything as it was? We would still be believing the earth was flat, there were only 1,000 stars, and that the earth was sitting on top of a gigantic turtle.

My whole point with this is Darwin made a legitimate theory for his time period, based on his hypothesis, but he did not have all of the answers and all of the background. If you showed Ptolemy a telescope, he would have never said there were only 1,000 stars. Likewise, I believe if you had shown Darwin a microscope, he would have never believed that everything was created by chance.

Darwin had NO IDEA of the complexities of life, or even the complexities of the human cell. Or what about DNA? DNA is what instructs our cells what to do. Did you know that in every single person, you have enough DNA in your body, that if you were to unwind it all, it would be long enough to reach from the earth to the sun, wrap around the sun, and come back to earth 300 TIMES! The sun is 93 million miles away!

Darwin had no idea of the world of the cell, and what it really entailed. There is a WHOLE ENTIRE world in every cell that science had previously been oblivious to. Let me show you what I mean. The following link is a video clip animation of what really goes on inside each and every cell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS-GYLVNh-k

If this doesn't get you to say 'wow' and realize how complex life really is, I don't know what will.

What I am saying with all of this is that yes, Darwin had a legitimate hypothesis for the time with his findings, but just as science has corrected itself again and again over history, it once again needs to correct itself.

Just seeing the complexities of life, of animals such as the humming bird, of the cell, of DNA, it CRIES that there HAS to have been a creator! Whether this creator is God or not, all of this couldn't have simply happened by chance!

The existence of God cannot be undeniably proven in such a way that every single person will believe it; and it cannot be disproven in such a way. Of course it could be, if God would simply show himself in front of the entire world and say 'HEY! I'M REAL!' But that would change the entire premise of our creation. God created mankind so that they would have FAITH in him, and trust in God. If God simply showed himself, there would be no need for faith, as we know it to be fact. That is the reason why this issue will never be fully answered and come to a close.

However, this does not mean that is no evidence at all for the existence of God, or of an Intelligent Designer. The Bible states:

“The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world” (Psalm 19:1-4).

What this is saying is that the evidence for God is all around us in creation in general. In the earth, in animals, in humans, in cells, in DNA.

I know, I know, I got off topic again, and I'm using the argument of the Bible, so let me show you a few arguments that don't include the Bible. The first argument I will show you is the ontological argument. This uses the concept of God (or in your case, not God, but an intelligent designer) to prove the existence of God. It begins with a definition of God (or I.D.) as being, 'a being than which no greater can be conceived.'

It is then argued that to exist is greater than to not exist, and therefore the greatest conceivable being must exist. If God did not exist, then God would not be the greatest conceivable being, and that would contradict the very definition of God.

That argument is a little confusing, so here's another one. This argument is the teleological argument. This argument is simply because the world and universe around us show such complexities, that there of course must have been some kind of grand designer.

"The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.

Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life. The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents."

If the elements in our atmosphere were even a few percentage points different, nearly every living thing on earth would die. The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10^243 (that is a 10 followed by 243 zeros). Not only that, but a single cell is comprised of MILLIONS of these protein molecules. So your saying that for each cell, out of the infinite number of them out there, there is a 1 in 10^243 chance that that protein molecule has formed by chance, and then take that number and multiply it by millions, and than take that number and multiply it by the sheer infinite number of cells in existence. And yep, it all just happened by random chance. Sounds kind of foolish to believe when you look at it that way, doesn't it?

This argument is saying that the chances of all aspects of life just happening 'by chance' is too great, and screams that there must have been some kind of intelligent designer. It makes sense, right? Every single scientist in existence will look at some object and say 'this just didn't poof from thin air into existence, there was some kind of designer of this object.' Think of the complexities of a computer, or even something as simple as a shoe. These things just didn't appear. They were designed. There was a designer who had a grand plan. So now we as society accept that every single thing is created by a designer, with the exception of the universe? Really? If it is possible for mankind to design a simple shoe, don't you think it would be quite possible for there to be an Intelligent Designer who started it all?

Another argument is the cosmological argument. Every effect is a result of a cause. This universe we live in and everything else in it is viewed as an effect of something. It came from somewhere. So what is the cause that created all of these effects? There has to be some kind of cause. Ultimately, there must be something “un-caused” in order to cause everything else to come into existence. I view that “un-caused” cause as God.

Another argument is the moral argument. Ideals such as lying, adultery, and murder are widely viewed worldwide as bad things, and things that people shouldn't do; they are morally wrong. But where did this sense of what we know to be right and wrong come from, if not from a God who designed us that way to know what is sin and what is not? You mean to tell me that all societies over the course of all history just happened by chance to generally believe that all of these things are morally wrong, without having any cause or reason for believing that these things are morally wrong?

I could go on and on about this topic, but I'll start to bring it to a close. No matter what arguments for or against evolution and I.D. are presented, there will ALWAYS be those that say "that's not legitimate evidence, you need more proof, I still don't believe you." That is never going to change. That is the reason why this debate will never fully be settled until the end of days when Christ returns, and all see the real truth.

There will be those that argue with every single thing I say, and they'll throw pile after pile of 'evidence' supporting their claims and theories, and trying to refute mine. But it really is quite pointless honestly. I believe what I believe based on my faith in God, and my personal experiences with God, and the fact that in my heart I know him to be real. So no matter what 'evidence' was thrown at me, my mind would still not be swayed. Many will call me ignorant and close-minded for believing that, but go ahead; do your worst. I know in my heart without a doubt what is true and what is not, and I'll take my creator's word for it over any number of men's words :)

So why are some people afraid of the concept of God and try so hard to disprove it? I know this answer does not apply to everyone, but I believe some people are genuinely afraid. They are afraid that if they were allowed to simply believe that God is the answer and that God is real, that they would then have to be held accountable for their sins. If God is nonexistent, than we can do whatever we want without having to worry about being held accountable for eternity. But if he does exist, then we do have to worry about being judged for our sins. The great thing about that is that he sent his son Christ to die for our sins, so that we can live forever with him in Heaven!

An acquaintance of mind de-friended me on facebook last night. I hadn't even said anything to him. He simply happened upon my facebook one night, and saw some of my views on God, and said to me something along the lines of 'This is the most ignorant, close-minded thing I have ever read on facebook! I am appalled! But I suppose you must be quite ignorant in general; I mean come on, believe the earth was created in 7 days? That's ignorance."

I fully realize that not everyone agrees with my viewpoints, and others perceive me as ignorant for my views. But honestly, I think it is more ignorant to believe in Evolution than it is to be able to believe in Creationism. I know I am in the minority in this view, but seriously, with all of the evidences modern science has shown, from DNA, to the precise accurate tilt of the earth's axis, to the earth's EXACT distance from the sun where if it was any closer it would burn, and any further it would freeze, to the complexities of the cell...All of this to me screams that there is a creator and that there must have been an intelligent designer. All of this couldn't have just happened by chance. So go ahead, keep on calling me ignorant for my beliefs, but I think it is quite ignorant to ignore the wonders of God that surround us everywhere!





It's not that science is "biased" toward evolution...evolution is accepted because there is tremendous evidence supporting it moreso that almost anything in science.

"There are thousands of legitimate scientists all over the world who believe the theory of Intelligent Design, not Creationism, holds validity, and that life around us undeniably shows that there was some kind of grand designer, whether he is God or aliens. "

ID is not science by any means, but rather is pseudoscience. This designer is laced with arguments from ignorance, god of the gaps, and arguments from "complexity." Just because something is difficult to understand or not explained at the moment doesn't mean that a supernatural being did it. Imagine in the past when we knew nothing about the chemical composition of stars, consciousness, thunder and lightning. As we "unweave the rainbow," we gain understanding about our world and gods become less plausible.

If you'd like to read about great refutations to common ID arguments, please visit TALKorigins.org and look around. It's a great resource.

Of course science is self-correcting...and that's the point. Science is simply our best understanding about our universe. Once we find new evidence, the old ideas go away and new idea emerge. Might we be wrong about everything today? Sure, and that's the beauty of science...it's self correcting and open to change.

Sure, there are paradigms in science and theories that people will defend tooth and nail, but what really matters is the evidence that you can marshal and how you deliver the parcel. ID has no good arguments and is not accepted by scientists for a reason....it's also unfalsifiable, untestable, not making predictions, etc, etc.

"The Bible not only contains zero scientific errors, but also makes accurate scientific statements, which would not be discovered until centuries later."

Umm...the Bible is not a scientific book. It's a religious book written by believers for believers. We'd be very silly looking for science in the Bible. Let's see.....two fo every species on a boat, people coming back from the dead, everything being created, people living past 100 years old. God isn't science. Religion isn't science. The Bible is not meant to be taken as a literal book and much is lost if you take it that way. I certainly don't believe that any gods exist, but we're foolish if we're looking at the Bible for science.

It's very easy to "rationalize" passages in the Bible or any long book for that matter to fit with what we know today and tailor it to our liking...but let's not only look at the supposed hits, let's look at the misses.

" Now his THEORY, is taught in most of our schools as FACT. " Right, evolution is a theory, a framework for how something works, not a simple guess or hypothesis. Evolution, though is true. Living beings do share common ancestry and species experience gradual change over time.

"
Darwin had no idea of the world of the cell, and what it really entailed. There is a WHOLE ENTIRE world in every cell that science had previously been oblivious to."

Great, it doesn't matter what Darwin knew because we base what we know off of our current knowledge. Freud was wrong about many things in psychology, but are we going to throw everything away and discount clinical studies and progress on understanding human though?

"Just seeing the complexities of life, of animals such as the humming bird, of the cell, of DNA, it CRIES that there HAS to have been a creator! Whether this creator is God or not, all of this couldn't have simply happened by chance!"

Complexity, complexity, complexity....The idea that something is complicated doesn't mean that there had to be an intelligent designer. Also, evolution is not "chance," but rather very deliberate change paired with mutation over a very long period of time. Evolution is the exact opposite of chance. You're also confusing the origin of life (abiogenesis) with evolution, please don't do that.

"The existence of God cannot be undeniably proven in such a way that every single person will believe it; and it cannot be disproven in such a way."

Christianity makes very specific claims about the universe, a god, miracles, etc and there is no good reason to believe any of these claims being made. You certainly can't "disprove" something (you know, pinky the invisible pink unicorn could be hiding! you can't say he doesn't exist!), but the burden of proof is on the theist, the person making the claim. If you can't give good reason for me to accept your claim, I'm not going to accept it. Imagine if I were to tell you "I can fly." You would ask me to demonstrate this and give you a good reason for believing this. You would not accept me saying "Well, I can't undebiably prove it and you can't disprove it, nah, nah, nah, ne, poo, poo." If I can't give you a good reason for my claim, it ought not be accepted. You certainly don't believe the millions of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens, seen Elvis come back, etc, etc.

"God created mankind so that they would have FAITH in him, and trust in God."
How do you know this? How do you know that this creator even exists? How do you know his attributes, what he thinks, how he acts, what he values, etc?

Also, these reasons give no weight to the existence of this being. Imagine if I said "the loch ness monster is in the loch and if he revealed himself, there'd be no point for people believing in him and the myth would be destroyed! He wants to test you and to believe in him!"

Using the Bible for "Evidence" is no good until you demonstrate that the bible is a reliable document and a testimony to the existance of God. Would I be justified in using my copy of the Mahabharata to demonstrate that Krishna exists? Certainly not, unless I can demonstrate that it is a reliable document.

The ontological argument fails tremendously:
Achilles is the greatest warrior imaginable.
The greatest being that exists is greater than one who doesn't.
Therefore, Achilles exists.

This is obviously false. The idea that I can think of a great concept does not prove that it exists.

Arguments from fine-tuning also fail tremendously.

Objection 1: There are no other universes to compare to
Why is this universe a perfect one? Other universes may be more suitable for life or may have been designed to be better suitable for life. We only have one planet in which life does exist to actually observe, while other planets that may have life may be better suitable.

Objection 2: The eventual heat death of the earth
The sun is eventually going to fizzle and all forms of life on earth will be extinct. Earth will be uninhabitable. Some design.

Objection 3: Evolution is a fact, not design. We don't need a designer to explain the evolution of lifeforms.
Evolution sufficiently explains how life progressed and is a more than plausible naturalistic explanation of life. We can't just automatically say "God started the universe" because we don't know the facts. We don't need an intelligent designer or creator of the universe to explain it.

Objection 4: Natural disasters, viruses, harmful mutations, and spontaneous abortions are contrary to a perfect universe.
Earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are natural occurrences that destroy life on the earth. A perfect universe created for humans and other life should not include disasters like this. Diseases, genetic abnormalities, and birth defects ravage life. Spontaneous abortions show that the human body is imperfect and that births are not sufficiently designed to occur without issue.

Objection 5: 99.9% of everything that ever existed is now extinct.

This argument is saying that the chances of all aspects of life just happening 'by chance' is too great, and screams that there must have been some kind of intelligent designer.

Again, just because something is complex doesn't mean God did it. Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean God did it.

"Every single scientist in existence will look at some object and say 'this just didn't poof from thin air into existence, there was some kind of designer of this object.' "


What? Who is saying that "everything poofed into existence?" Again, you're confusing abiogenesis, the big bang, and evolution. The big bang theory states that all matter was condensed and expanded. All that exists is a rearrangement of already existing molecules. Also, scientists don't look at objects and think about God. They think about the natural world...and God is supernatural.

"Think of the complexities of a computer, or even something as simple as a shoe. These things just didn't appear. They were designed. There was a designer who had a grand plan."

You can't go from humans making things to a supernatural being making things just because what humans make is "complex." Why can't we just say "I don't know everything about the universe and perhaps there is a naturalistic explanation instead of a supernatural one?"

Would you go to a magic show and say "Hmmm....Wow! I can't imagine how that guy sawed that woman in half! There must have been a supernatural intervention!"

"Another argument is the cosmological argument. "

The cosmological argument fails. "effect" breaks down on the quantum level and particles pop in and out of existence. The big bang, perhaps, could be the same exact thing. It's incoherent to talk about "what caused the big bang" because the big bang is the beginning of time as we know it. Might there have been a universe before? Sure, there might have been, but we've no compelling evidence for it...just like with a creator.

Also, why assume the first cause, if there is one, is god like? Why can't it be a natural event or something? You also state that "god is uncaused" but first say that "everything has a cause" Why can you exclude God from this? That is special pleading. Why can't we also say "the universe is uncaused?"

"Another argument is the moral argument."
This also fails. Morality is a concept developed by humans so that we can understand our actions, talk about right and wrong, etc. We don't need God to explain why we behave well and behave poorly. About 99% of us understand that we enjoy personal freedoms, to be exempt from harm, and want to be treated well. We project this onto others and behave for reaons of goodness, survival, instinct, fear, etc. We don't need God to explain this. We worked out that it's wrong to murder, rape, etc because we want socieities to flourish and progress...we also don't want to be raped. We almost certainly need order to live in a stable community and enjoy this luxury. I don't need threats of Hell or advice from a ~2000 year old book to behave well. My life experiences and my education have imbued me with the yearning to be good.

"You mean to tell me that all societies over the course of all history just happened by chance to generally believe that all of these things are morally wrong, without having any cause or reason for believing that these things are morally wrong?"

This wasn't by chance at all, but rather the product of cooperation, government, philosophy, and common sense. I don't want to be killed, so I don't kill people.

"I believe what I believe based on my faith in God, and my personal experiences with God, and the fact that in my heart I know him to be real. So no matter what 'evidence' was thrown at me, my mind would still not be swayed. "

You just contradicted almost everything you typed above. You try to provide arguments and reasons, but now you're saying "no matter what, I believe in my heart." You know, children around the world believe in Santa Claus although there is no evidence, from their personal experiences, etc. Beliefs about reality are not internally justified. You need good reasons and arguments to posit things about reality. "Faith" is no good reason to suggest something exists. You certainly wouldn't have faith regarding Thor, Posideon, Vishnu, Lord Xenu, etc. Again, we atheists don't need the evidence...the burden is on you.

"I know in my heart without a doubt what is true and what is not, and I'll take my creator's word for it over any number of men's words :)"

I know in my heart that Santa Claus exists. He gives me reason to be good and I can't imagine a universe without him. I'll take his word for it over men's words. See how ridiculous this is?

"So why are some people afraid of the concept of God and try so hard to disprove it? "

Again, you can't "disprove" God. People aren't afraid, they come to non-belief because of reason, logical arguments, and obvious insanity like the problem of evil, inconsistent revelations, no evidence, etc. Atheists are simply people who don't believe in any gods...this is a statement of non-belief, not a statement of denial of reality.

"If God is nonexistent, than we can do whatever we want without having to worry about being held accountable for eternity. "

So, if God doesn't exist would you suddenly find it permissible for people to go out and rape, pillage, and murder? Of course not. If people are only good because of God, we're quite a sorry lot. I'm good because I care about my reputation, the well-being of others, don't want to be arrested, etc. If your claim were correct, non-believers would be out murdering every day and the least theistic countries would be constant killing grounds. I'm accountable to myself and others, not God...and I'm fine without him.

"But honestly, I think it is more ignorant to believe in Evolution than it is to be able to believe in Creationism."

Nobody "believes" in evolution. It requires no faith, but is based on hard evidence. You don't "believe" in planetary motion, gravity, or germ theory. It's not ignorant to accept that, based on the evidence, evolution occurred.


June 2, 2010

Public School Threatens Student Who Won't Attend a Mass



A student from a public high school in Pennsylvania was really threatened for unwillingness to attend a baccalaureate mass. The school district, according to this report, says that attending this mass is mandatory for class officers (which is a complete violation of students' rights). The schoolboard president asserts that this is all a "mistake" and that students aren't required to attend the mass because the language was a typo...what nonsense.

I'm very excited for Ryan and am very proud that people are willing to stand up for their rights in the face of extreme adversity that is often associated when religion is concerned.

The full story and video is here. Be sure to watch it!

Hopefully much more is to come...

Fight on Ryan and stand strong!



***Update***
Documents related to this:

http://issuu.com/ryanmio/docs/weinrich_letter_june_2009 [from Weinrich to Miorelli, 6/2009]
http://issuu.com/ryanmio/docs/aclu_letter_for_ryan_miorelli_june_2009 [from ACLU to TASD, 6/2009]
http://issuu.com/ryanmio/docs/tamaqua_response_july_2009 [from TASD to ACLU, 7/2009]
http://issuu.com/ryanmio/docs/tasd.bacc [from TASD to Class of 2011, spring 2010]
http://issuu.com/ryanmio/docs/aclu_letter_for_ryan_miorelli_5-20-10 [from ACLU to TASD, 5/2010]

http://issuu.com/ryanmio/docs/20100519135830467 [religious bulletin handed out by TAHS class officers at 2009 baccalaureate, 5/2009]




....and Tamaqua releases a memo

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