Post Updated: 8/30/10
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King's College continues to advertise the Knights of Columbus and makes it very explicit that it only for Catholic males over the age of eighteen.
(The Crown, August 26)
According the the King's College Student Handbook (2009-2011),
Knights of ColumbusWe strive to be Catholic gentlemen, promoting brotherhood within our order ans strengthening the Catholic faith in our lives and on campus. We welcome all Catholic men over the age of 18 who live in the Wilkes-Barre community to consider joining our Council (44).
According to the King's College Knights of Columbus website,
We welcome Catholic men over the age of 18 who live in the Wilkes-Barre community to consider joining our Council. We also invite those not eligible for membership to join us in service, and the celebration of our Catholic faith.
According to the Knights of Columbus website,
If you are a practical Catholic man, age 18 or older, we welcome you to join the leading organization of Catholic laymen.
Knights are Catholic men, 18 years of age and older.
It's quite obvious that the Knights of Columbus are only accepting Catholic males who are at least age eighteen.
A new group at King's College, The Columbiettes, is a similar group. According the the King's College Student Handbook (2009-2011),
The Columbiettes is an organization of Catholic women dedicated to our Patronesses, the Blessed Virgin Mary, St. Theresa the Little Flower and St. Joan of Arc (43).
According to the King's College Columbiettes' website,
Our goal as a newly founded Columbiettes organization is to support Catholic roots in women through fellow Columbiettes while reaching to others in the community. The Columbiettes was started to support the Knights of Columbus while maintaining a separation.
According to the Columbiettes' website,
The Columbiettes are now an international organization of Catholic women presently established in the United States and Canada.
So, now that we know about what both organizations require for membership, here are the rules of King's College from the student handbook regarding student organizations,
Student clubs and organizations must adhere to all college policies and regulations.The organization must not discriminate on membership based on race, religion, gender, physical disability, or sexual orientation (emphasis mine) (48).
Perhaps the gender requirement isn't an issue because two separate organizations are in place to allow both males and females, but this is still a defense that's on very shaky grounds. I'm most concerned about the religious requirement to join the Knights of Columbus because it's so obvious of an affront to the rules that the college established.
I recently voiced my concern in a limited post on Facebook reading,
Something is wrong here with the Knights of Columbus at King's College. College Handbook page 48, "The organization will not discriminate on membership based on ... religion, gender ... the KC KOC website "We welcome Catholic men over the age of 18 who live in the Wilkes-Barre community to consider joining our Council." ??
"Membership in the Knights of Columbus is open to practicing Catholic men in union with the Holy See, who are at least 18 years old. A practicing Catholic is one who lives up to the Commandments of God and the precepts of the Church. Application blanks are available from any member of the Knights of Columbus."
In response to this post, King's College student (and Sentinel of the Columbiettes) Jamie Woolfolk responded with various logical fallacies including red herring arguments and borderline personal attacks that don't seem very "Catholic" or "adult-like" to me:
I responded to this post:
Ok Jamie, I am saying that the organization is discriminating on the basis of religion and gender. The college handbook clearly says that organizations can not discriminate on the basis of gender or religion. Both the KOC (males and females) are at least discriminating on the basis of religion. Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc can not join these groups...it specifically is only open to Catholics.
"yes, you have to be 18 because they are adult clubs"
I'm not disputing the age requirement. Unrelated argument...
" you dont see the koc facebook group posting nasty stuff about you, which they should because you take your views way too far. "
Red herring argument - what does this have to do with my current discussion? Oh, and you're advocating that the KOC Facebook group should post nasty things about me? Nice. Very polite and adult of you to say that...and why "should" people post nasty things about other people? Also, how exactly am I taking "my views too far?" Is asking questions, upholding the law, and demanding intellectual honesty "taking it too far?" Is posting online "taking it too far?" What exactly am I doing...and what does this have to do with the current discussion anyway?
" i dont even know how you are still allowed to be at kings college"
Really? Where exactly is the clause that King's College students can not uphold the law and fight for separation of church/state issues?
Here are the facts:
In December of 2009, King's College released a public statement that said the following:
http://www.timesleader.com
"Since his complaint, there has been a public outcry against him because of his enrollment at the Catholic school, but McAndrew noted that the school doesn’t “discriminate against people of any religious background” for admissions."
McAndrew said he knows of no plans to question, reprimand or otherwise address the issue with Vacula. “While you can argue with them morally, his actions aren’t illegal,” McAndrew said.
King's College Student Handbook (2009-2011) Page 51 "College students are both citizens and members of the educational community. As citizens, students shall enjoy the same freedom of speech ... that other citizens enjoy."
"and now posting stuff about them on facebook"
Oh, so King's College students aren't able to ask questions about the legitimacy of campus organizations and point out potential problems with organizations that are seemingly breaking rules? All I posted was quotes and "something is wrong here." Isn't college supposed to be about critical thinking, free speech, and learning instead of "sitting down and shutting up?"
" you might not believe in God, but dont take it out on MY school or MY organizations."
What does belief or lack of belief in any gods have to do with questioning the legitimacy of an organization at King's College? Another red herring argument....
How exactly am I "taking anything out" on King's College?
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Can you please address my questions instead of saying that people should post nasty stuff about me and raising unrelated issues?
"yes, you have to be 18 because they are adult clubs"
I'm not disputing the age requirement. Unrelated argument...
" you dont see the koc facebook group posting nasty stuff about you, which they should because you take your views way too far. "
Red herring argument - what does this have to do with my current discussion? Oh, and you're advocating that the KOC Facebook group should post nasty things about me? Nice. Very polite and adult of you to say that...and why "should" people post nasty things about other people? Also, how exactly am I taking "my views too far?" Is asking questions, upholding the law, and demanding intellectual honesty "taking it too far?" Is posting online "taking it too far?" What exactly am I doing...and what does this have to do with the current discussion anyway?
" i dont even know how you are still allowed to be at kings college"
Really? Where exactly is the clause that King's College students can not uphold the law and fight for separation of church/state issues?
Here are the facts:
In December of 2009, King's College released a public statement that said the following:
http://www.timesleader.com
"Since his complaint, there has been a public outcry against him because of his enrollment at the Catholic school, but McAndrew noted that the school doesn’t “discriminate against people of any religious background” for admissions."
McAndrew said he knows of no plans to question, reprimand or otherwise address the issue with Vacula. “While you can argue with them morally, his actions aren’t illegal,” McAndrew said.
King's College Student Handbook (2009-2011) Page 51 "College students are both citizens and members of the educational community. As citizens, students shall enjoy the same freedom of speech ... that other citizens enjoy."
"and now posting stuff about them on facebook"
Oh, so King's College students aren't able to ask questions about the legitimacy of campus organizations and point out potential problems with organizations that are seemingly breaking rules? All I posted was quotes and "something is wrong here." Isn't college supposed to be about critical thinking, free speech, and learning instead of "sitting down and shutting up?"
" you might not believe in God, but dont take it out on MY school or MY organizations."
What does belief or lack of belief in any gods have to do with questioning the legitimacy of an organization at King's College? Another red herring argument....
How exactly am I "taking anything out" on King's College?
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Can you please address my questions instead of saying that people should post nasty stuff about me and raising unrelated issues?
Imagine these hypothetical discussions....
King's has a club that constantly bashes gay people.
- Oh, no problem, this is a Catholic college.
King's has an organization that burns scarecrows imitating president Obama.
- Oh, no problem, this is a Catholic college.
King's has a club that harasses women at abortion clinics.
- Oh, no problem, this is a Catholic college.
King's has a club that houses dying people, forces them to shave their heads, does not provide proper medical care...
-Oh, no problem...Catholic college!
This argument of "this is a Catholic college" fails.
King's won't allow a club or organization for non-theists (and anyone else who wants to join), but they'll break their own rules in their own student handbook and allow the KOC to discriminate on the basis of religion.
King's has a club that constantly bashes gay people.
- Oh, no problem, this is a Catholic college.
King's has an organization that burns scarecrows imitating president Obama.
- Oh, no problem, this is a Catholic college.
King's has a club that harasses women at abortion clinics.
- Oh, no problem, this is a Catholic college.
King's has a club that houses dying people, forces them to shave their heads, does not provide proper medical care...
-Oh, no problem...Catholic college!
This argument of "this is a Catholic college" fails.
King's won't allow a club or organization for non-theists (and anyone else who wants to join), but they'll break their own rules in their own student handbook and allow the KOC to discriminate on the basis of religion.
After reading several of your posts on your blog, I have reached a conclusion: (Level-headed atheists such as yourself are excluded from these points, and I am using gross generalizations to prove a point)
ReplyDelete1) No one wants to have a legitimate debate about anything.
2) No one will answer any of your legitimate questions that you raise.
3) Everyone will continue to ride the bandwagon and use personal attacks against you instead of attacking the issues.
4) There will always be people that believe that they have the only correct opinion, (which is actually a fact to them) and that everyone else is wrong.
5) No matter how illegal something is, people will always choose god/religion's side in an argument.
I don't think you read enough posts Tyler. Bear in mind that most people equipped to answer the arguments present here don't in fact visit the blog. Most readers are of like mind to Justin.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the KofC club on campus -- YUP, the University Handbook was written too broad and is in conflict with many groups, I would imagine. These things tend to be written using boiler-plate language that isn't always thought through into it's application. For instance, the Fraternities and Sororities violate this language as well (though I believe King's only has honors societies, not traditional greeks). I'm not sure how the code would be re-written or even if it needs to be re-written.
I understand your point Justin, but I happen to think their is a need for single-sex groups. I won't rehash arguments others have made in the past. Is your complaint specifically with the KofC or with any group that violates those statements. How about the fraternal honor societies? How about Title 9 athletics? If a non Catholic wanted to join the KofC in an effort to disrupt it's mission, I think they should A) welcome them, and then if/when they clearly don't share the clubs mission B) expel them.
I think that having two groups (one male and one female) might get around the gender discrimination, but the religious discrimination is still a problem.
ReplyDeleteIf someone joined any club, though, and was disruptive, you should get booted...and this doesn't only go for the Knights. If I joined the Psychology Club, for example, and tried to sabotage the club, I should get booted. There are surely expectations and codes of general conduct that all are to follow.
According to the King's College website, 2 of the organizations are Sigma Kappa Sigma (EKE-men) and Sigma Kappa Tau (EKT-women). Is this also an example of gender discrimination?
ReplyDeleteThey might get around the gender requirements by offering similar organizations...
ReplyDeleteI'll be the first to tell you, as a Knight myself, that we were not recognized as a college club. We needed the women's auxillary to that recognition. Yeah we violate the handbook laws by only allowing Catholics, but the Knights is a Catholic orginization and King's is a Catholic school so that's probably how we got away with that one. If it is such a big problem for you, I'm sure you can gather evidence and present to the proper authorities to remove our recognition as a campus club, and King's can once agian merely be a host to our council. As the council advocate, I play the role of "legal representative" and would be happy to participate in any sort of hearing or debate to do so. Either way, not much would change for us and we could adhere to the guidelines of the student handbook. So, win-win. I mean, you are right. Though I don't think it's reason for outcry. There wasn't exactly an uproar from our non-catholic students about not being able to be a Knight of Columbus.
ReplyDelete-Zach Snyder
Advocate KoC Council 4966
Thanks for a reasoned comment, Zach, much unlike some others.
ReplyDeleteThe KOC is currently recognized in the King's College Student Handbook as a student organization. As I noted, there are specific rules for the clubs at King's. If adding a womens' group met the prerequisites to allow for fair gender treatment, the age and religion requirements still violate the rules.
I have a feeling that "King's is a Catholic school" seems to be the improper trump card in various discussions. If King's makes its rules for everyone regarding clubs, everyone should follow them (and shouldn't be exempt because they are Catholic clubs).